tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post3989618594795568760..comments2024-03-25T02:53:26.373-04:00Comments on Women in Crime Ink: Lies and No ConsequencesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-73550163289322021772009-07-31T13:21:35.870-04:002009-07-31T13:21:35.870-04:00Ok, Flea, I get what you are saying. We are ALL fo...Ok, Flea, I get what you are saying. We are ALL fools to believe that there is any type of "true justice" anywhere in this world, except perhaps in Iran.(They would go over well there) <br />I get it. <br />Now go espouse your theories in Iran.cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717256091553930518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-83121446632638504862009-07-30T07:46:23.789-04:002009-07-30T07:46:23.789-04:00"Tricks" win.
The goal is to WIN.
A pro..."Tricks" win.<br />The goal is to WIN.<br /><br />A prosecutor delays the trial of a young juvenile until he is more mature appearing in front of a jury.<br /><br />A prosecutor overcharges: recall perhaps the Oregon prosecutor who charged statutory rape when the girl was only six months short of 18 and had used the camera herself and all photos were in her custody. <br /><br />A prosecutor develops all evidence that supports guilt.<br /><br />A prosecutor will attempt to rattle a defense witness by making a prompt but meaningless objection.<br /><br />Defense lawyers play tricks too.<br /><br />The lawyers goal is to win. They may get paid by the defendant or by the state, but the goal is to win. In sports, the goal posts are often switched at half time, but the object is still the same to win.<br /><br />Often that win is against someone who believes that good triumphs over evil. Often that win is against someone who told the police he didn't need a lawyer because he was innocent. Often that win is against someone who allowed a search of his property. Its no sweeter a victory when the defendant believes people have good in them. Its just a victory like any other.FleaStiffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837830811566745662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-82295099731138428312009-07-28T08:30:19.813-04:002009-07-28T08:30:19.813-04:00Actually, Cheryl, I wonder that a defense attorney...Actually, Cheryl, I wonder that a defense attorney would not say that is exactly what a proper defense is - "A defense that wins." After all, if a defense attorney is willing to use every trick in the book, not to be sure the prosecution adequately proves its case, but to cause the jury to have some doubt where none should have been, then the attorney must believe that himself.<br /><br />Attempting to delay the trial in hopes that witnesses die or can't clearly remember anymore, trying to get the case thrown out on every technicality in the book, creating alternative scenarios one knows are bunk, these are employed by defense lawyers on a routine bases. Are they trying to provide their guilty client a reeasonable defemse or simply trying to get their guilty client off. Winning IS what the point of the adversarial system, not truth, and that is why is it poisoned to thc core.Pat Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15667909509324138003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-40263470407805609872009-07-28T06:11:00.714-04:002009-07-28T06:11:00.714-04:00"a proper defense is one that wins" I kn..."a proper defense is one that wins" I know you probably said that with tongue in cheek, because if I thought you were serious, I will have lost all hope that anything good resides in human beings. <br /><br />Or not.cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717256091553930518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-88774870507529505552009-07-28T04:59:13.515-04:002009-07-28T04:59:13.515-04:00A proper defense is one that wins.
If some notiona...A proper defense is one that wins.<br />If some notional carjacker fools someone, it was a proper defense.FleaStiffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837830811566745662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-51176438204797649162009-07-26T13:17:15.785-04:002009-07-26T13:17:15.785-04:00Cheryl, your story and attorney "come up with...Cheryl, your story and attorney "come up with any defense" is common. I was brought in to profile a case in which a wife killer was getting an appeal. The lawyers handed me the crime scene photos and info and told me to meet them a week later with my profile. I came back and said the husband sure as hell did it, brutalized his wife, chopped her fingers off to get her rings, and then stuffed her in the trunk, leaving the car abandoned by the side of the road. His garage was drenched in blood. No question. Murder one.<br /><br />The lawyers didn't blink. "Well, couldn't you also come up with an alternative profile like a carjacker?"<br /><br />I walked out.<br /><br />When does did the concept of a proper defense change into any sleazy, unethical, manipulative, lying methodolgy that can snow a jury?Pat Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15667909509324138003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-82680856067982256582009-07-26T07:48:36.500-04:002009-07-26T07:48:36.500-04:00Oh, by the way, my husband spent 2 nights in jail ...Oh, by the way, my husband spent 2 nights in jail and had to pay a fine(??!!) and go see a counselor.cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717256091553930518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-85898902082243728842009-07-26T07:44:46.931-04:002009-07-26T07:44:46.931-04:00Back in 1996, my ex-husband of 18 years tried to k...Back in 1996, my ex-husband of 18 years tried to kill me. We were separated at the time. He had never been physically abusive to me. Mentally and verbally abusive big time.I learned to tune his abusive voice out. I had no qualms about going for a cup of coffee with him to talk about our divorce. <br /><br />On the way home, (he was driving) he claimed that he had to take a leak, and stopped at the Boardwalk Pavillion in Spring Lake. He opened the car door and out of nowhere...started pummeling my face.He grabbed my hair and would not let go. He said he was going to kill me, and he didn't give a crap about the kids, he didn't care if he went to prison for the rest of his life, he just wanted me dead. He reached for his machete, which he used for work as a land surveyor, and I let my hair go. All I could think of was my children.I escaped from him. <br /><br />What does this have to do with this post? Well...My ex husband invoked his right to counsel when he was arrested several hours later. His lawyer asked him if I touched him at all. Why of course I did. I scratched his wrist as he was choking me. SELF DEFENSE!! I was the one put on trial. I had to prove that I didn't attack him first. <br /><br />Here I am, bleeding, bruised eyes and neck, half of my hair gone, and he has a couple of wrist scratches. <br />How do these attorneys live with themselves or sleep at night?cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717256091553930518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-87501327970350514152009-07-26T02:32:17.521-04:002009-07-26T02:32:17.521-04:00I'm surprised he talked to you at all.
The la...I'm surprised he talked to you at all.<br /><br />The last time I went to court for a ticket there was a big sign that said...<br /><br />"Prosecutor will only talk to defending counsel"<br /><br />So you could only plead if you paid another lawyer, which was probably more than the fine would be.SHTHARnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-72872769399743138372009-07-25T22:08:22.558-04:002009-07-25T22:08:22.558-04:00I never said the prosecution never lies nor that p...I never said the prosecution never lies nor that police officers never lie. My point is that all those involved with the courts should be required to be truthful or be jailed for perjury. That I did not specifically address others lying in court does not mean of approve of this either.<br /><br />However, the worst problem we have with the system is that too many criminals can play it.Pat Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15667909509324138003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-62723690481329469992009-07-25T11:47:46.282-04:002009-07-25T11:47:46.282-04:00Pleading not guilty is not saying: "I didn...Pleading not guilty is not saying: "I didn't do it." It's a procedural statement in court. In my work the client doesn't even say it - it goes more like this:<br /><br />Me: Your honor, please enter a plea of not guilty on behalf of my client.<br /><br />or<br /><br />Me: Your honor, I spoke with the prosecutor and we haven't reached an agreement. We will make motions.<br />Judge: Okay. I'll enter a not guilty plea.<br /><br />Your post reflects an obvious bias. Telling the truth is situational for defendants and their lawyers? Are you saying cops don't lie?<br /><br />I'm puzzled about this. I don't see where you accuse defense lawyers of lying. I'm in court frequently and I don't see it happen.<br /><br />A common question I get:<br />How can you defend someone you know is guilty?<br />My response:<br />Have you ever asked a prosecutor how they can prosecute someone they know is innocent?<br /><br />I've seen it. I saw it as an intern in a DA's office and I've seen it as a defense lawyer with prosecutors admitting privately that they're doing it - politics, or following orders, or protecting the cops.<br /><br />So what's worse for society? Lying defendants or lying cops? Defense lawyers defending the guilty or prosecutors prosecuting the innocent? It appears you think the former is worse in both, while I think the latter is worse.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16942422727278141113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-18532581948494177982009-07-25T11:06:17.067-04:002009-07-25T11:06:17.067-04:00I tend to agree with you Pat. When I first moved o...I tend to agree with you Pat. When I first moved out on my own to Salt Lake City back in the early 1980s I had to get my own automobile insurance. The agent was reading over the fine print with me and one of the items on the list said "NEVER admit fault in an accident, even if you are sure you are at fault." I was floored and asked him why [because lying to a cop who is investigating my accident doesn't sound like a good idea to me] and he brushed me off by saying that the other driver could be speeding, or run a red light and you might not even know it. That makes sense in a way, but I still would never have the audacity to straight out lie to LE. Especially when I am paying the stinking high insurance premiums for them to take care of my accidents, even when I am at fault. <br /><br />I believe in the accused's right to be proven guilty and that he doesn't have to incriminate himself, but straight out lying is wrong and the reason we have over populated jails and back logs in out court system. Some people will walk 100 miles to tell a lie and won't even cross the street to tell the truth. Very sad!Leahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-56988178552766657922009-07-24T18:35:40.663-04:002009-07-24T18:35:40.663-04:00Plea bargains were common even back in the days wh...Plea bargains were common even back in the days when jurors were selected from a responsible segment of the community. <br />There used to be Blue Ribbon Jurors... essentially rich retired republicans who could devote substantial time to complex cases. We should bring those back. <br /><br />The main thing is get rid of the crack addicts and bus drivers on juries.FleaStiffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837830811566745662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-40391364778292290222009-07-24T13:08:13.702-04:002009-07-24T13:08:13.702-04:00I think a good part of the problem lies with the i...I think a good part of the problem lies with the idiotic jury system; totally untrained people who are suddenly supposed to be able to judge evidence and determine what it means all while being confused by both the prosecution, the defense, and the bought experts.<br /><br />If we instituted a professional jury system, maybe proving a case might be easier and then plea bargaining would not be as necessary to put criminals away.Pat Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15667909509324138003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-8578555522472181602009-07-24T12:00:46.972-04:002009-07-24T12:00:46.972-04:00There should be a Santa Claus.
There should be a w...There should be a Santa Claus.<br />There should be a whiskey flowing in whiskey creek.<br />There should be alot of things.<br /><br />The system does not have, never has had and never will have a focus on truth and justice.<br /><br />Blackmail? The resources of the court are limited and so is its ability to determine truth. The threat of enhanced punishment if you do not plead guilty is ever present. The threat of 'we only make deals with the FIRST person to roll over on his fellow conspirators' is ever present.<br /><br />Its an assembly line processing of files, not individuals.FleaStiffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837830811566745662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-91455857586104640012009-07-24T06:49:01.525-04:002009-07-24T06:49:01.525-04:00If the system had a focus on truth and justice, th...If the system had a focus on truth and justice, there would be no need for game playing. The police would have to have probable cause for arrest, to charge the defendant with a crime. Then, the trial should be scheduled. No plea should be necessary and no plea bargain permitted (regardless of the arguments for it, it is nothing but blackmail and collusion). The state should have to prove the defendant's guilt and the defendant should have to pay the full, not partial price for crimes found guilty of. The defendant would simply go to trial unless he chose to plead guilty and not wait for the jury verdict. The punishment would remain the same with or without the guilty plea.<br /><br />Lawyers should be bound to tell the truth if their clients admit guilt to them. It should be a matter of ethics. The state should have to prove its case BECAUSE there is no confessoin of guilt. If there isw one, that should be enough proof in court. If the defendant is lying that he is guilty, it is he that has provided the fabricated evidence that convicts him and he should suffer the consequences of such lies.<br /><br />The defense attorney should be doing his best to make sure his client isn't railroaded, the the court's evidence isn't false. He should be able to use the information his innocent client gives him to help him fight for his freedom. But the attorney should never be in collusion with the guity defendant to mislead the court, hide and distort evidence, or to lie to the judge and jury about the defendant and his actions. If so, the attorney should be charged with obstruction of justice.<br />Likewise for the prosecutor if he presents any erroneous information or lies to the jury. Truth should be demanded in the court of everyone: the lawyers, the experts, and the defendant.Pat Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15667909509324138003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6316617410436977874.post-7184051623229476712009-07-24T03:53:24.544-04:002009-07-24T03:53:24.544-04:00You have a right to plead not guilty and to put th...You have a right to plead not guilty and to put the state toits proof even if you are in fact guilty.<br /><br />"My client is innocent"... well, unless the jury has returned a verdict yet, his client is innocent!<br /><br />The schoolyard bully wants you to play according to his rules. Some bulies grow up to be criminals, some grow up to be cops, some luckier bullies grow up to be lawyers and even luckier bullies grow up to be judges, but they always want you to play by their rules. You should have pleaded guilty to doing forty.FleaStiffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837830811566745662noreply@blogger.com